Butt Rock Ken

"The Investment"

Comments

[this is good]

So many responses come to mind. Best to leave it be. The discontent being what it is and all... More color! More music! Yes, I'll have more of that!

[this is good]
It brought to mind the contrast of Van Gogh's early dark 'northern' paintings, including the famous 'potato eaters' and similar dark agricultural themes with his later paintings of violent colour and energy. Although that did not lead to a joyful conclusion.

I don't know where you live, but where I live (Southern California) the church is certainly not in decline. Where do you get that we are in post-Christiandom? Of course America is not based in the same Christian principles it once was, but the church is still alive and well, and filled with young people and families.
Van Gogh's early dark work came from a man whose father was a pastor who was trying to fit the mold expected of him and become a minister. The church at the time had no understanding of the way God could give such an amazing gifting to such a man. His later work is more vivid, more alive but also came from a man whose heart was broken by rejection - especially from the church. Living the line between growing into God's design while that work was in conflict with the church's culture around him - this complexity led to his frustrating spirel downward into meloncholy. No, living between the will of God and the church when the two are in conflict does have a way of ending up in places less than joyful.

Well I guess this is where you get it. Perhaps the reason I don't see the church in decline is:

"Mainline denominations have been losing membership for decades in the U.S.; conservative denominations have been growing."

However, the Bible says that the gates of hell will not be able to prevail against the true church - (even if they do end up in house churches.) Most of the churches in my community are growing. But where is the true church in those other countries? Maybe the new church model in Europe should be "conservative." :) Ya think?

What about these statistics:

The percentage of American adults who identify themselves as Christians dropped from 86% in 1990 to 77% in 2001. This is an unprecedented drop of almost 1 percentage point per year.

From 1992 to 2003, average attendance at a typical church service has dropped by 13% whereas the population of America has increased by 9%!

In the past, church attendance reaches a minimum for people in their twenties, and then increases with age. "Busters, though religiously inclined, have steadfastly resisted the traditional delayed return to the Church." If this trend continues, the future for organized Christianity in the U.S. would be grim, as older parishioners die off and are not replaced.
The verse about the gates of hell not prevailing seems to often be misunderstood. Gates are defensive structures. In the NIV the verse says "... I tell you that you are Peter,[c] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[d] will not overcome it.[e]" The footnote refered to by [e] is very telling of the true meaning of this phrase: "Or not prove stronger than it." To say that the church in any specific part of the world cannot decline or even die off is, frankly, arrogance. The majority of the churches Paul planted were in modern-day Turkey, which is 99% muslim today. In the second century Christianity spread across northern Africa. How many Christians are there now? Then the church spread across Europe. Now only about 7% of the people in the UK attend church. The western church will die if we don't fundamentally change things. The gates of hell won't prevail against the church, as long as the church is still attacking them. The western church has become too comfortable with the "come to us" model.

The western church has become too comfortable with the "come to us" model.

I agree with you here. It is interesting to me that the drop in the US has come during the time that churches have been working at becoming "seeker friendly." One of the trends is that churches (including my own) don't have church membership any more. That has been seen as a positive move in not making people feel "in" or "out." But the actual result as I have observed is that the committment level of attendees is much less.

The positive that I saw in church membership, at least in my own experience, is that one must give testimony of a personal faith in Jesus Christ and agree with the doctinal statement of faith to become a member. Out of these people will come Sunday School teachers, youth leaders, etc. Joining the church meant committment to serve and support the church ministry, be it music, teaching, outreach or whatever. This particular change in church culture could account for church attendance dropping.

All of our grown children attend church with their families, but there is much competition in the way of Sunday sports that wasn't the case a few years ago when the culture as a whole honored Sunday. They make up for it by attending another local church that has a Saturday evening service or an early morning service. But many people would not make the effort to do this. And even this lessens the committment to one's own church.

Yes, I agree, the church can decline and the Bible even warns the churches in Revelation that they need to repent or He will remove their lampstand from that place. We resemble the church at Laodacea far more than I like to admit. But I don't think the answer is a different program. The answer comes in repentance and returning to our "first love" which has often grown cold.

We resemble the church at Laodacea far more than I like to admit.

Exactly! I haven't read Revelation in quite some time, so I had to look up what was said to what church and you're absolutely right about the letter to the church in Laodicea. Actually, it should really be a call to repentence for much (maybe even most) of the western church (especially what I seen in American churches). "You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked." I may even do a blog post on this in the future.

But I don't think the answer is a different program. The answer comes in repentance and returning to our "first love" which has often grown cold.

Absolutely! A new program isn't going to solve things. Changing our style (which is, basically all the seeker-sensitive movement was) isn't going to solve things. Changing the way we do things isn't going to change things. What we need is a fundamental change in the way we think about church. Instead of taking forays into the wicked world in order to find a few people we can bring back into the safety of the church, we need to actually live in the world and take
Christ to the people in the world. The funny thing is that most Christians would agree with this in principal, but when the implications become clear they turn and run back to their Christian ghetto. The American church need a good dose of repentance.

[this is good]

Do you think that perhaps we should view the local church as the place where we disciple believers and equip them to go out into their communities as salt and light? This means getting deeper into the Word so that we can represent our faith more accurately to the world. People are not likely to repent if they don't even know what the Bible has to say.

When all is said and done, it is a challenge to be balanced in our efforts at evangelism, discipleship and teaching toward maturity. But God will honor the desire to find His will and direction in these matters.

Do you think that perhaps we should view the local church as the place where we disciple believers and equip them to go out into their communities as salt and light?
Perhaps, but I think it's important to get away from church models. I think it's more important to focus on the necessities of Christian faith. Discipleship, community, sacraments, worship, etc. (there's obviously a lot more), and implementing them in new an innovative ways to reach a sub-culture that we've been called to. If we approach things this way then each "church" could look very different from the outside, but will have all of the same key components. Many will look very much like what we see now (though they will operate differently), but some will look absolutely nothing like what we see now yet will still have all of these components that make for a mature growing community in Christ. The struggle for the modern church is to ask God for the discernment they need to allow this to happen while still providing leadership and accountability. The struggle for the leaders of the future is to accomplish these things without becoming rebellious against the established church. The modern, institutional church may be dying, but that doesn't discount the great value that it still holds.

it's important to get away from church models

What does this mean?

It means that the church, being the body of Christ, should grow organically, rather than conforming to one model or another. Just as not every person is a hand or a foot, neither are churches. When we try to follow the newest megachurch trend we aren't being what we're called to be, we're trying to be what Saddleback or Willow Creek are called to be and wondering why it it's working. Don't get me wrong, we can certainly learn things from what other churches are doing, but to try to copy something that was successful elsewhere (especially if sucess is measured by bodies in the pews) betray a real lack of trust in God. Our leaders (and I count myself among them, although my time has not come) need to be on their knees listening for God's direction for the flock God has given them rather than jumping on the bandwagon of the latest trend.

I feel like I need to say here that even though I am saying a lot of negative things about the modern church in my life (online and off) I'm trying to sort out what the way forward for the church is. Part of that is recognizing and repenting of where we have gone wrong, but too many people seem to want to dwell in that place. I'm not one of them. I want to push forward into the future that God has in store.

Our leaders (and I count myself among them, although my time has not come) need to be on their knees listening for God's direction for the flock God has given them rather than jumping on the bandwagon of the latest trend.

I agree.

"I want to push forward into the future that God has in store."

You can't go wrong there. How do you invision that in your church?

How do you invision that in your church?

The church I attend is in a season where the leadership has realized that we're not where we were meant to be, and is actively seeking God's direction for the next season. Our building is located right in the middle of town (one block over from Main Street and one block down from the county courthouse) and the building used to be a records building for a nearby bank. Our leaders have talked about wanting the building to become more of a community center. I like that idea. I don't know how far they want to take it, but I'd love to see our building become a community center that a church meets at rather than a church building that holds community events. Not every church could pull this off. We have a unique location and the fact that we don't have what's traditionally thought of as a "church building."


Now, for me myself it works out in some different ways. Most of what I envision myself doing is much more decentralized than part of a single church. I'm looking at starting a (monthly? bi-monthly? quarterly?) group based off a nationwide group that I've recently become a part of. It's hard to explain without going into a lot of detail about what this larger group is. But the people who would be a part of this group pretty much all attend different churches. I'm also looking at starting a ministry that will take donations of old computers and parts to build decent computers for families in need. I'm envisioning working with not only the church I attend, but other churches, parachurch organizations, and other family/poverty-oriented charities in the area.

By the way, you're asking some great questions that need to be addressed.
Sounds good to me!

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