Cori

Reconciling Faith and Science

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[this is good]
Speaking as a person with no faith, in science or religion here are my thoughts.

Did God create the Earth in six days? Certainly not.
Did the universe come into being out of nothing 14 billion years ago? Certainly not.

My lack of faith comes from my lack of understanding of where God came from. Did God come into being out of nothing? Certainly not. This also informs my lack of faith in science.
Everything has to come from somwhere, you can't get something from nothing.

I know I'm trying to apply logic to something that is inherently illogical but I can't get past it on either side.

I am fascinated by people who choose one religion over the other. I always want to know why. Even I as a non-believer have a preference. I would be Jewish. My reasoning is kind of difficult to explain so I won't go into it here.
Paganism comes in a close second though.
[this is good]

Great post. My dad is a scientist who is Christian (not to be confused with Christian Science!) and has really been intruiged by those questions. He actually just taught a class on evolution for our church. He doesn't believe in evolution, but because the scientific evidence is shaky, not because believing in evolution would weaken his faith. I'll try and remember to ask him what books he's read on the subject.

I absolutely believe that science and God are not mutually exclusive. Sometimes it seems like the more we know about how things work, the more miraculous it becomes, and the more questions it raises.

[this is good]
Lots of good stuff her Cori! Since I am a scientist (well at least my degree is in the science), this is always stuff that I have found very interesting. I have had numerous people surprised when I tell them I am a Believer; "how can you believe in God when you know so much about how the universe works?" My response is usually "how can I not?" God created the universe so finding about how it works seems like a wonderful thing to study!

I have no read any of Collins' books but have looking forward to after reading about his conversion. He has such a prominent position as director of the Human Genome Project and his conversion is a pretty huge deal I think.

No, I don't believe in a literal six day creation and I am always confused when people assume that the creation account in Genesis is a scientific account and not part of the narrative that the ancient Hebrews would have been used to and passed down from generation to generation. Of course God created the universe, by why would we limit his creative finger to six days? Beats me.

Anyway, I could go on and on about this subject but that wouldn't be very appropriate. I will do a little self promotion now (so please feel free to ignore); I have written about a lot about the relationship between science and religion and if you happened to want to read a few of my thoughts, here are a few of my posts: God in the Nucleus, The God of the Bible is also the God of Science (with some thoughts about Collins), Creation Science, Science vs. Religion.

I think my biggest concern with all of this is how many times in history things have been attributed to God when, in fact, they have had a very logical scientific reasons -- solar eclipses, the movement of the planets, etc. If evolution is true (I'm not saying that it is, but go with me on this), then sticking by our standard Creation story is actually doing a disservice to faith.
Well said! I really don't have a problem with people believe in a literal six day creation or whatever else (because really, our salvation isn't contingent on what we believe here), but to ignore God's hand in the universe is silly. Science can show us wonderful things about what God has done!

It's like the God of the Gaps theory. God fills in where science has no explanation. Problem is, if science does find a solution, God is squeezed out. Instead, perhaps we should, as people of faith, be looking to God as the Author and Perfector of all things, even if all things were done a little bit differently than we have been taught to believe.
Again, well said! I do think that, in general, science and religion are asking different questions (how vs. why), but that they also compliment each other very well and religion cannot just be something that fills in the gaps as it were (and I suppose science cannot be used that way either).

Ok, I am getting long again! Sorry! Lovely post, I love this stuff!

[this is good]
This is an interesting post. My dad read this book not too long ago. I'm Jewish by birth and agnostic by belief, but I don't think science and faith have to be (or should be) mutually exclusive. I think when any faith refuses to accept anything scientific as fact, they push would be believers away. I like the way Matt Jones put it, the how vs. why. I don't think religious people should be so afraid of evolution, whether they believe it or not because I don't think it proves there is no G-d. If it did, I would be atheist and not agnostic.
[this is good]

Cori -- Best. Post. Ever. (and I mean it) -- thoughtful and most assuredly un-preachy. Having been a scientist for 20 years, and curious all my life, this is one that has rattled around in me for years and years.

The other weekend when we went to LA -- we saw the planetarium show -- which was really phenomenal. The central theme was that throughout mankind's history we've looked into the sky to explain the world (creation) and our place in it. This has been done religiously for millenia (don't we always look "up" to Heaven?) -- and scientifically for centuries. And the great thing was, they made it very clear that we don't understand this universe -- not by a long-shot.

We can observe evolution occur in real-time. We share a common ancestor with everything on this planet. Does that make us any less miraculous? I don't think so. In fact, I think the real miracle is that we have the capacity to delve into our own nature -- in fact, I think we are charged with trying to understand our place in the universe.

I believe our relationship with God is about knowing our place in this universe and our place beyond it. The scientific method can do one -- it can't do the other.

I'm gonna stop here and think some more -- but Francis Collins is really under-appreciated. The HGP was finished ahead-of-schedule and under-budget. Its the tip of the iceberg in understanding our genetic complexity as a species. We'll be unraveling this for decades.

(Fish) -- that's one of my main reasons for believing in God. That everything had to come from somewhere. Things just don't appear out of nowhere. So in my mind, it makes sense that something exists outside of time that would be able to create the stuff that became the universe. And that something has to be pretty powerful.

I'll try and formulate a post in the future on why I've chosen Christianity over other religions. I didn't become religious until high school, and my religion isn't the religion of my parents. I find it interesting as well to learn why people believe what they believe.
Alex -- I'd be interested to know what your dad read. It doesn't look like my search about this is going to end any time soon! I totally agree that the more we learn, the more miraculous things can be. Math does that to me. Just knowing the very little I know about math makes me in awe of the way it all works together.
Matt -- Thanks for the links to your posts! I can't wait to read them. For someone who is NOT a scientist, it's hard for me to understand a lot of things so when people put them to me in normal language, I really appreciate it.

I also think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned that this isn't a salvation issue. It's something I should have touched on in my post. Well done. :)
Bookish -- The how vs. the why is an interesting discussion. I also agree that evolution shouldn't push people away from faith. If God is God, then it doesn't really matter HOW He did what He did, it's WHY.
Steve -- I was hoping you'd reply since you've talked about the HGP before. I like what you said about knowing our place in the universe and our place beyond it. Knowing that you're a scientist, it's nice to see that you don't discount God in this crazy universe of ours. :)
I have always loved the mix of religion and science (hence my BS in physics and astronomy and progress towards a Masters of Christian Studies in Theology) and I love to talk about it with others! I look forward to more. :) And let me (or, I am sure, Steve) know if you have any questions!
I believe that the Bible is inherent and literal, so that means that I don't believe the universe is billions of years old, I believe that God created the heavens and the earth (and in six days), I believe that Jonah was actually swallowed by a big fish, that God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, that the Israelites actually caused the walls of Jericho to fall down by walking around them, etc. I know that a lot of people believe that most accounts in the Bible are allegories or whatever, but I'm firm in my faith and my beliefs. I've read Josh McDowell's Evidence That Demands a Verdict, A Ready Defense, and Don't Check Your Brains at the Door, and I'm fine with what I believe. I also don't believe in evolution. (And global warming is a naturally occurring phenomenon, not man-made, but that's a whole 'nother ball of wax.)

I guess I'm just not one of those people who has ever needed to question. Hebrews 11:1 takes care of that for me. I take the above matters (and a whole bunch of others) on pure faith. If I'm wrong, I figure it probably doesn't affect a whole lot of things -- certainly not my salvation -- and if it does, God will show me. :)

Cori -- its funny -- I know lots of scientist of faith. At my company, I interact daily with Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus -- its a real melting pot -- and we all ask questions of our faith. When I was in graduate school, I taught 7th-8th grade religious education (Catholic CCD) with a young woman that was a grad student in astronomy (wow -- did i ever have a crush on her... she had the best hair....anyway, I'm getting off-topic...) --- we liked to describe how we each saw the miraculous nature of Creation from different sides -- she from the astronomically large --- myself from the small molecular side. I'm not sure the kids got it, but we liked it...

And I don't think that science is out to destroy religion -- nor do I think that religion is out to undermine science. As with political extremism -- zealotry on either side is very dangerous --- and a closed-mind really is a waste. I think anyone that thinks they have God and/or the universe figured out is fooling themselves.

Very well said Steve.
[this is good]
I'm a UU, and I've been giving a lot of thought lately to the relationship between science and religion.

It's gotten a lot of negative publicity from religous people, but I think Richard Dawkins's The God Delusion has a lot to say about the ideas/issues you mention here. For instance, Dawkins pretty effectively criticizes the hypothesis that the "properties of the universe appear to have been precisely tuned for life." Those passages really affected me.

I'm still trying to figure out what I think about Dawkins (the book is not, however, nearly as combative as some have indicated) and, well, everything else. But I absolutely think his work is required reading right now for anyone trying to figure out whether science and religion ought to have a relationship.
[this is good]
Ditto and done.

Interesting that you referenced the particular quote from Galileo that you did. Those words were the final words he spoke, after a lifetime of having been intermittedly persecuted by the church for his theories, and having lived under house arrest for much of his final years. And the current pope felt obliged to state several years ago that "the process against Galileo was reasonable and just." (Well, when one considers that others who held his theories were burned alive, that may be a relatively mild statement.) One of the reasons he was persecuted was for espousing the Copernican assertion that the solar system was heliocentric (planets revolving around the sun). No thinking believer would claim that the earth is the center of the solar system.

I see nothing in the theory of evolution which contradicts the belief that there is an unseen hand at work behind the scenes. Indeed, Darwin posited that evolution was a demonstration of the greater majesty of the Creator, not a dimunition thereof.

Indeed, the more that science uncovers, the more awed I am by all that God has wrought. I will try to say this without rancor: Why must we suppose that God needed to dumb down creation for out benefit?

And what of the fact that there are two creation stories in Genesis; one in Chapter one, and one in Chapter two? Man in created by God in his image and likeness on the sixth day in Chapter one, but not until after the seventh day in Chapter two.

How is it that key elements in the story of creation appear to have been directly adapted from Sumerian and Babylonian and Akkadian mythology? Are we to suppose that God spoke to the Sumerians and Babylonians and Akkadians, just so the story would be passed onto the Chosen People?

Why is it so difficult to believe that the creation of God is infinitely more complex than our ancestors several thousand years ago could possibly conceive of? Certainly, just because we find creation so complex, why would we assume that God finds it complex? After all, to a being of infinite mind and spirit and range, the process of creation and evolution, which seems so unbelievably complicated to us, would seem no more complicated than lighting a match.

Of course, that leads to the question of why could not such a being also accomplish all of this in six to eight days? I guess that my answer comes out of my belief that God doesn't try to trick us. And it seems odd that there would exist a fossil record which, based on sound dating, clearly contradicts Bishop Usher's supposition as to the age of the earth. Indeed, does not Second Peter state that to God, time is as nothing? Why would we suppose that God need be limited to a time period with which our puny minds feel comfortable? Is not the enormous panorama of millions of years more likely than some cheap parlor trick?

There are other stories in the Bible which may also have elements of allegory, or may attempt to explain natural phenomena by placing them in some legendary context. For example, the story of Moses contains several elements which might be explained by the eruption of Thera. And, although the timing is off, the flooding of what is now the Black Sea by the Mediterranean occurred about 7000 years ago, and would have had a catatrophic effect on any peoples who might have settled along the banks of what then was a fresh water lake. Would it have been unusual for the tale of such an event to have been passed down orally for millenia?

I am probably getting too far afield. My primary point is that I see no reason to question my faith in a Higher Power, based upon what appear to be rational explanations, based on rigorous research, into the workings of the world and universe, simply because they do not conform to the yearnings of those whose faith has failed to grow to match our understanding of the glory of God.

Having not read much of Dawkins, I'm not in a great place to criticize him, however, he is starting from a standpoint extremely antagonistic to Christianity (and religion in general), so it isn't any surprise that, to him, the "properties of the universe appear to have [not] been precisely tuned for life." Of course it is convenient that he has life to be able to make those claims (yes, that is a fairly flippant comment, but still...). Of course the universe has been setup to allow for life, if it wasn't we wouldn't be here. Regardless of how someone feels about God, it is undeniable that the universe (however it got started) has progressed in such a way that has allowed us to be here to talk about it.

And of course his book is combative, he is explicitly denying the existence of deity, how can that not be combative?

Dawkins' claims about God, especially Yahweh, clearly show that he doesn't actually know much about the Bible or what it says. Just doing a quick search at wikipedia, Dawkins notes that God "arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction. Jealous and proud of it, a petty, unjust, unforgiving control freak, a vindictive bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser, a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." That just made me laugh (well, and weep). Atheists have been spewing that tripe for years (and will continue to do so) without actually studying (and understanding) the passages that they use to make these claims against God.

I have no doubt that Dawkins is great at rhetoric, but I have no doubt that his arguments are lacking (and it seems at least some are merely ad hominem attacks). I have no doubt that he will convince many, but his cause is hollow.
Oh, and if you want an in depth, deeply philosophical and rigorous, rebuttal to Dawkins' book, check out Alvin Platinga's book The Dawkins Confusion.
I haven't read Dawkins either but I've read enough about him and read enough interviews to agree.
Dawkins is doing a disservice to everyone, Atheists, Believers, Agnostics, Scientists...everyone.

It was an interview with Dawkins that actually started me on the path to nhilism from being atheist. After I read about how he essentially attempting to replace religion with science, I was aghast. For my money science has just as many answers, if not fewer, as religion about the "deep" questions of the ages. Why would I take the word of either when neither have the answers I seek?

He and his followers are way antagonistic. They are just as bad as some the people they are claiming to disapprove of.
To me proselytization is an all around bad deal be it religious or scientific. But that is a whole different argument/conversation/discussion.

While I dislike Dawkins due to his combative language about religion, I disagree with your statement that his explicit denial of the existence of a deity is what makes him combative. That is the definition of atheism, and I don't think one must be combative to religious people to be atheist. My fiance is atheist and is unhappy with the manner in which Dawkins refers to people of faith as idiots. So I must say it is a bit presumptuous for you to say:

Atheists have been spewing that tripe for years (and will continue to do so) without actually studying (and understanding) the passages that they use to make these claims against G-d.

Not all atheists are as combative as the ones you hear about in books and in the news. Most of them just silently don't believe. Attacks on atheists as a whole are just as combative as the attacks Dawkins and his colleagues use against people of faith. Quite frankly, it is those attacks that spur Dawkins to be as combative as he is, in my opinion.


Thanks for pushing back against that Bookish, of course it is a generalization to say that all Atheists are combative. When I say that "his explicit denial of the existence of a deity is what makes him combative" I should have been more explicit myself. I should have said, the way he makes his denial of deity explicit is what make him combative. My statement about about atheists making claims about God is specific to atheists making those statements about God and not those that are quiet in their belief.
He and his followers are way antagonistic. They are just as bad as some the people they are claiming to disapprove of.
Indeed. Have you see his "Blasphemy Challenge"? Regardless of what you feel about faith and those who practice it, this is in extremely poor taste, a big publicity stunt, and could actually be damaging to those who participate (and could perhaps have a change of heart later in life). His so called "Rational Response Squad" is, at least in my encounters with them, a bunch of rude, antagonistic, and arrogant people who just hate Christianity.

I feel like I am taking over your post Cori, sorry!

Have you see his "Blasphemy Challenge"?

I've seen that, and I also find it in very poor taste. They do nothing for themselves or fellow but kinder and gentler atheists. The only reason for it is to be combative.

I'm in a position of teetering between Judaism (the reason I type G-d instead of spelling it out) and agnosticism. For that reason, I am protective of both atheists and religious people because the two groups should be able to live with each other. I guess the problem is that faith is such a powerful thing that some people get too passionate about it through hateful words or violence. Sometimes I'm afraid that Dawkins' use of the former with inspire the latter.
I'm not entirely sure that what I wrote was received in the Voxy spirit that I intended! I'm just saying that—whether you're an avowed believer or an avowed non-believer—you owe it to yourself to read what the other side has to say. IMHO, it's not "right" to rely on third-hand accounts of Dawkins or anyone else. And having read The God Delusion, I found it much smarter and much less combative than advance billing suggested.
I've started The God Delusion, and you're right that the book itself is not as combative as the title suggests. Of course, like many other books, the controversial title was probably just a publicity attempt. I still have problems with the publicity stunts as seen on his website.
[this is good]
Awesome discussion, and one I've wrestled with over the years. Btw, I come from a similar background: Christian, English Major, interest in science and inquiring mind. I don't believe science and faith are mutually exclusive. I do believe, as much as we attempt to understand, and although our scientific explorations increase our knowledge daily (as does it pose further questions), our knowledge is finite both of science and of God, so it is hard, with such an incomplete knowledge base, to reconcile the two, although some worthy attempts have been made. Glad this discussion has come up and I'm gratified to see it discussed in a non combative and open minded way by all here! Much thanks!

Wow! I leave my computer for a day and it's commentapalooza around here! Thank you for all your thoughts about this -- I'm entranced.

I'm not going to respond to every comment individually this time because I'm writing this stealthily at work. :)

I've heard of Dawkins work but I haven't read anything by him. I'm concerned that the intent of my search is not to rule out one side or the other (science or religion), but to find ways that the two can coexist, at least at this point. Plus I cannot agree with Dawkins' assertions about God -- yes, God is Justice, but he's also Love which I think is readily apparent in the Bible. Anyway, I'm not sure I'm ready for Dawkins, plus the publicity stunts make him seem ridiculous and petty. Perhaps someday.

After thinking a lot about this the last few days, I think that the big point for me is that the scientific discovery should not negate the need for God. Instead, I prefer to think of God as the creator of science. Which is much better than thinking of Him as living in all the spaces where science has yet to find an explanation. I also agree that we'll never understand everything on either side. Again, science asks the "How?" and faith asks the "Why?" and therefore they can never completely reconcile.

I think I'm rambling. Sigh.

Thanks everyone, for your insights. :)

I'll put the "God of the gaps" idea another way.

People's faith is weak.

It's one thing to have faith in a god; faith that God exists even though you can't see him, can't hear him, can see any evidence in him.

But most people don't have this kind of faith.

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